Norfolk Southern President and Chief Executive Officer Alan Shaw recently sat down with David Novak, co-founder and former CEO of YUM! Brands Inc., to talk leadership on Novak’s podcast, How Leaders Lead.

Shaw and Novak discussed the importance of humility, of showing up, and of keeping your promises. Shaw noted that, for him, the most important thing a leader can do is listen.

“That’s one of the things I do when I get out in the field is I ask questions,” he said. “I don’t have the answers, but I know that all 20,000 Norfolk Southern employees do.”

Founded in 2020, Novak’s show features conversations with CEOs, founders, and entrepreneurs in business, sports and entertainment. Each episode includes in depth discussions about how leaders got to where they are and what wisdom they’ve gained along the way.

Shaw told Novak that the most essential quality a leader can bring to the job is humility.

“My biggest pet peeve: arrogance breeds complacency,” Shaw said. “It keeps you from learning, it keeps you from getting better, and you better lead with humility.”

To hear more of the conversation, tune into the How Leaders Lead podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.